Hello and welcome to the Soul Aligned Self-Care Podcast.
How are you doing today?
So honored to be here.
Thanks so much, Tina, for having me.
Yeah, I'm so excited to get into this conversation.
So to get started, I would like to know a little bit about your background and how you started
doing what you're doing because you help women kind of reclaim their authenticity, right?
Step back into themselves and reconnect with themselves.
So where did this come from?
What's the story behind that?
Oh my gosh, deep disconnect, deep, you know, dis-ease.
So let me start with this.
I think at a very young age, I felt different and I think so many of us do, right?
It's just like we're the ones that don't fit into the grid.
And I was raised in a very, very strict Roman Catholic home.
My mother was actually a former nun.
So, yeah, you know, so it was, there's a whole story there.
And it's actually a beautiful love story.
And I think I didn't realize that my childhood was also very rigid, very oppressive, you
know, I didn't have language for that until I was later in life.
And of course, like most of us, I was indoctrinated or programmed and so many of us women are programmed
into what I call the trans-of-unworthiness, which is kind of like the messaging, like death
by a thousand tiny paper cuts.
So if you're raised like I was in a religious atmosphere, there's a lot of derogatory stories
that kind of like position women as, you know, bad, wrong, inferior, all of these things,
right?
And of course, those of us, those, your listeners are probably nodding their heads, they
very much probably understand that that's the waters that we swim in.
And so the bigger question becomes, how do we get out of it?
And how do we kind of like unplug ourselves from that matrix when we've been programmed
to be what I call the four P's, pleasing, pretty polite and performative?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's awesome.
So, I got to a point in my late 30s where I realized that I had done everything that
they say we women can do.
I had kind of, you know, gotten to the top, wrong of the ladder of success, what they say
success is in this modern world.
I had been on the today show in "In Style" magazine at that time I had built a parenting
goods empire, but it would, I always say I was building an empire on quicksand because
it was coming from a place of needing to prove myself versus authentically true to who I
was.
And I realized at that point in my life that I had basically done everything other people
thought I should do instead of following, in fact, I didn't even know how to follow my
own inner voice because I couldn't figure it until I could.
And it wasn't until I really, really started to recognize that I hadn't, I also didn't
have a sense of spiritual freedom or autonomy.
And that was when, kind of the simultaneously when my whole world fell apart was when I also
decided to kind of stray outside of the way I had been raised and really start to explore
what spirituality really meant to me.
And of course, as you start unraveling, that was what I started calling the Revelation
project because it was like every veil that was lifted, there was like a gift to see underneath
kind of what I called all of these shadowy, dense energies that were keeping me from really
going within.
You know, so it was, it was such an outward journey.
And of course, once we reached the point where we are kind of overwhelmed, depressed, you
know, feeling like my God, like I can't do this anymore, that's when the heroine's journey
really starts.
And what's different from the hero's journey or the masculine journey is our journey is
very much inward.
Their journey is very much outward.
So going within and it really started with a dark night of the soul, which was nine months
in bed.
Wow.
That's wonderful.
Yeah.
So it was kind of like everything culminated at once.
And I realized in hindsight, it was happening for me, but it was, it was kind of like, I
realized I had been praying, but not the way I had been taught to pray.
It was more like my prayer was like, please don't make me do this.
I can't do this anymore.
It was like, there was this deeper pleading with whoever I was pleading for it, like, I
can't do this anymore.
It was like, I can't hold up this facade anymore.
Mm-hmm.
It's exhausting.
It's tiring when you're showing up not as yourself.
And that's for functioning.
Yeah.
And that, like you talk about the pleasing, the pretty, I can't remember all the things you
said, but so relatable, I think, to all women, really, there's a few lucky people that don't
experience that at the same level.
But I think we all experience that at some level because it's just kind of intertwined
into society.
You know, so it's so hard to step away from it.
It's so hard to step out of that.
And I completely went through the same thing myself.
And I would say, still, to this day, I'm still, like, learning how to really honor, you know,
that gut feeling, that intuition, that connection with myself.
It's still something that has to be somewhat intentional.
It doesn't come natural to me.
And I'm assuming at some point it will because that's my experience when I try to kind of
try something new is that the more I do it, the more it becomes more natural.
But I could honestly say that it is not completely natural to me now and every once in a
while.
I have to remind myself and really, like, check in, you know, and ask myself the questions.
Is this really aligned?
Or am I just, you know, jumping through the hoops and going through the motions?
I don't think you're alone, Tina.
I mean, I think this is lifelong work.
I mean, when you think about the programming and the tribal codes that we operate within,
everything that we're trying to do literally goes against that, that tribal code.
It goes against those societal norms.
And so if we weren't constantly question ourselves, we wouldn't be in what I call the process
of unbecoming.
And we have to unbecome to become who we really are, you know, to reveal the truth of who
we really are.
And it is.
It's true.
It's like a discernment process.
You have to stop constantly and ask yourself, like, wait, does this light me up?
Does this give me pleasure?
Does this honor my needs?
And I believe that once women stop taking care of everybody else and turn toward ourself
first, that we become kind of the well of being that then overflows.
And then we are naturally giving from this place of overflow instead of from this place
of depletion the way we've been taught.
And I believe we've been taught this.
I don't think it's sinister necessarily.
Some people might put it into that category, but I do believe it's by design.
I believe that women are powerful beyond what we have any capacity of understanding.
We're just starting to understand those that are breaking the bullshit rules, you know?
Those are the women that are starting to recognize, like, my God, it's no wonder they took
us out of circles.
It's no wonder they took us out of leadership positions.
And if you've studied how the whole witch trials happened, it was really the transition from
the feudal society into capitalism when they took women out of all of these leadership
positions because at that point in our history, we were extremely valuable, extremely knowledgeable,
extremely wise.
And in many societies, in equal positions of authority and leadership, and they couldn't
have that when the whole capitalistic system came to transition into, and so that was when
the whole witch trials really began and that was at the root of it.
Yeah, so the witch trials are so interesting because I recently learned a lot about how
it had a lot to do with ownership of land and that, you know, just the power that women
have.
And I always say, just if you want to know what men are afraid of, or if you want to
look at something that is, if you want to know what's powerful, it's what man is trying to
surpass.
So like men constantly try to suppress and control women because we're powerful.
That's right.
And now we're at the point where that's just all coming out and they just can't stop it
now.
It's going to explode.
It is going to explode and I'm here for it.
I'm here for it.
So me too, I'm so glad I'm alive during this time.
I just want to see it through.
I just want to see it.
It's, and I love that you said that because a lot of people can focus on the fear and the
scaryness of these times and while that's very true, it's also an incredibly exciting time
to be alive.
Yeah, it is.
I go back and forth just like everybody else probably does.
But I truly think that everything that is happening right now is breaking down because
we need to rebuild from a different place.
And so I just, I just keep looking at it that way as an excitement of what's going to become,
you know, what it's going to turn into.
So I think, I think we have a lot to look forward to, especially as women.
So I do too.
And I just, just a quick plug just because you said this breaking down piece.
There's a great podcast out there by a friend of mine.
Her name is Amy Alabastin.
It's called Breaking Down Patriarchy.
And if you're listeners or you haven't heard about it, it is so darn good.
So start at the very beginning and it gets better and better.
I think she's in her fourth season.
Oh, it's so illuminating because it talks about the whole thing.
The whole history of how patriarchy came to be.
And then she literally comes into the, into the present and what's happening now.
And it's fascinating.
Ooh, I can't wait to listen to that.
That'll be good.
On my walk podcast, kind of, do y'all?
Yes.
Yeah.
Because it's empowering because one of the things that she also talks about is the fact
that we've been, we've had to reinvent the wheel over and over again, women.
And actually, there's all of this substantial data and information that we can draw from.
And she's acted as that central repository to kind of pull all of the information together
so that women can finally understand our history, finally understand all of the women
that have gone before us doing this work and ends up kind of like really showcasing what's
really happening in the world right now from an entirely different perspective.
That just sounds like it'll feed my soul.
It will.
I just, I can't wait.
Yeah.
It'll also make you incredibly angry at times.
Oh, I'm already angry.
But, yeah.
I'm so like fed up like, and I think a lot of women are.
I'm like, I think, I don't know if men can feel the energy, maybe they can, but I think
the energy is like, we're right at that like, like a breaking point almost where we're just
like, okay, I'm just so done with men like in general, like, in very much in general,
because there are some good men out there, but just in general, I'm like, yeah, I'm just so
tired.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm really tired.
So continuing to go down your path, you started working with women, helping them go
through what you went through, I assume with guidance obviously, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, to be honest, when I came out of my dark, the dark night, I really was listening
to this inner voice that was telling me I needed to work with women and the funny part
is I was so resistant.
I was like, wait, I don't even know if I like women.
I mean, I'm just going to say that point blank because of my conditioning.
Yeah.
And I didn't realize that the very first thing I had to address was my own inner misogyny,
because we all have it because we've all been programmed in a certain way.
And the one thing patriarchy couldn't have was women celebrating and loving and coming together
in powerful ways.
And so our upbringing was often about comparison.
It was often about like scarcity, right?
Like there's not enough.
Like it was often about focusing on who's the prettiest, who's this, who's this, right?
Like completely compete with each other.
Oh, and I got to the point where I was just like and and I developed these personas in
order to survive my relationships with women instead of actually learning how to show up
authentically with other women and recontextualize how we gather together and what we're not
going to do anymore.
We're not going to gossip.
We're not going to shun each other.
We're not going to disapprove of each other.
We're going to and so there's certain tools and practices that I teach women to first
of all address the deep misogyny that we all have.
Oh my God.
Well, thank you for that work because I can't stand it when I see that happening.
But yeah, I came from a place to say, I probably, I don't know how old I was when I used to say
that, that I don't know if I like women.
Right.
And I want to be a boy.
I wish I was a boy.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I can't tell you how many times I've said that.
So yeah, I came from that place too.
When I was younger, I used to say that.
And now I just don't have the patience for women, especially women that are my age, you
know, competing and trying to like beat another woman down or take another woman out or just
judging a woman for how they look like, come on now.
That's, you know, so it's like, we get enough of that from the world.
We need to like really be there for each other, no matter what and support each other
because we just get enough of that from the world.
Yeah.
And one of the things Tina, I want to point out because you're pointing to it specifically.
This is when I started to understand how helpful the work of archetypes is.
And when it was put in this context, I was like, oh my gosh, I can see something I couldn't
see before.
And if we were to put it in a context of what I call initiation and what I mean by that
is when in indigenous societies, when a woman gets to a certain age, she is brought
through a right of passage by the wise women in the community.
And becoming an adult is celebrated when she comes into her men's seas, when, you know,
like all of that, she's given additional responsibilities.
She's celebrated in different ways.
She's honored.
She's revered in our society.
It is very different.
What happens in our society is that from a very young age, we are shamed, gilded, blamed,
and what happens is that we come into this point of men's seas and we realize that we're
becoming the very thing that society abhorors our culture, right?
And so why would we want to become women?
And what we end up doing is become suspended in time.
We stay inside of something called wounded maiden.
And when you look at it through these natural archetypes, there's the maiden in her
healthiest form.
So we both have young daughters.
I have a 23 year old daughter.
And her way of being in the world, because I reparented myself when she was young, she had
a chance because I broke the generational kind of curse or the generational wound that said
that I was going to reparent or parent my daughter the same way I was parented by my mother.
And no slight, oh, my mother, but my mother, like so many of our mothers were actually wounded
maidens.
They never came into their full bloom.
They never came into their full actualization and ended up resenting their position in
society, ended up for a fitting and sacrificing because that's what we're taught to do.
And they ended up becoming angry and resentful and fearful and trying to keep their own daughters
in a box instead of like celebrating their daughters.
And so I have a fierce daughter who's out there like, you know, and it's so funny because
as she was being raised, if, you know, men would say what men say, like, oh, you're going
to have to stand with a shotgun at the door for that one.
And I'd be like, don't worry about her, you know, like, she's, she's, she's going to, you
know, like, she's going to eat them up, you know?
And like, celebrating that really, really, like, letting my daughter be who she is and making
sure that, you know, as for as long as I could, but nobody was going to come and steal her
spirit or tell her that she wasn't going to be able to do this because she was a girl.
And I think that we have these natural archetypes that we move into unless we don't, unless
we're, unless we're arrested in that kind of developmental phase where we're never, we
never have the wise woman or the true mother.
It's one thing to have had a mother.
It's another to have been mothered.
And so if we have not truly been mothered or wise woman to through an initiation, we're
going to be suspended in these places where we resent other women, compare ourselves to
other women, compete with other women, right?
And so it becomes this self perpetuating prophecy over and over and over again.
And that's why we're the ones, I say, we go back to these exciting times to be alive because
we are the generational chainbreakers, the ones that are listening to this podcast are the
ones who are breaking the tribal code.
We're breaking these patterns that have kept us in states of oppression and kept our daughters
in states of oppression.
Yeah.
And I, I think that in order to, in order when you, when you talk to a woman and you see,
this is, I don't know, this is probably not the most popular comment to make, but I,
I work with a lot of women who are like angry, very angry.
And I also work with a lot of older women older than myself.
And I love being able to see them to come through that and then just blossom into themselves
and then finally be comfortable.
So I just want to say like it's never too late.
I don't care.
Old yards, never too late to like blossom into something.
And I'm truly convinced that the, you know, the Karen term that we hear that, that people
talk about, those women are just angry.
Like they're, they're, I think deep down inside, they're maybe some of them are terrible people,
but we could also call them wounded maidens.
Yeah.
And because that's what it is, that's what it is.
They're just, they're, it could be fear, it could be so many different things, but they're
just like protecting themselves.
And they're just, you know, and I, I truly believe that if more women had access to this
kind of, this kind of work, this kind of healing, then this, this process of, you know, the,
the feminine energy rising in this time period would happen so much faster.
But I do believe that it's starting to snowball and catch on and then it's just going to move
a lot faster than we even realize.
And once again, I'm excited about that, especially for my daughters.
And even for my son, because what we experience in this world is not benefit men either or
sons, you know, it, it hurts them too.
So I am excited for this.
I'm looking forward to watching how it plays out and being in whatever stage or archetype
I am right now.
I'm, I'm just, I'm here to teach and support and guide.
I feel like that's my job right now.
Yeah, yeah.
And it, it sounds like you were kind of talking about anger for a minute there.
And I, I want to just kind of circle back because I think it's such an important emotion
for women.
I think it's such a powerful, powerful thing to explore for women.
And I think most of us have been taught that it's very unbecoming to be angry.
Yeah.
And yet that's such a clarifying, purifying energy that helps us get real clear about what
we're willing to tolerate.
And for so many women, you know, we got what we tolerate.
And so we're often faced with situations where we're keeping the peace instead of making
peace, you know, in order to kind of avoid the disapproval, the self-disapproval and, and
disappointment that comes when we lose it, right?
Yeah.
We really get punished when we, you know, experience anger, you know.
And it goes really deep, too.
Like, think about what they used to do to women.
Well, they used to claim they were, they had hysteria, you know, they would put them in,
you know, like an institution and lobotomize them, you know, or they would burn them at the
stake or, you know, whatever.
So it's, you know, it's embedded in our, our history and our DNA that it's not safe
for us to show our emotions.
And so doing that.
Now, I am not afraid to show my emotions.
I'm definitely in the era of, I don't give a fuck.
And so like, I just, you know, it comes out.
But there's certain times, I think when it comes to like, the people that I really love and
care about, like my children, where I, I don't mute myself, but I will make sure I'm being
like appropriate or something like that because I don't want to hurt my kids.
I think there's always kind of that, you know, that, that part of us that will be like, you
know, just discern when, where and how, you know, we, we behave ourselves or not.
Yeah.
But there's also when it comes to our kids, it's also like modeling.
And like you said, you, you want to model for your girls.
Like, I don't want to model to, to my daughter, tolerating something that I'm truly not
tolerating.
And sometimes she's like, oh my god, mom, you know, like, but at the same time, I'm like,
I'm, I also really have to look at like, okay, well, what's the real lesson here?
You know, not only for me in that moment, but for her.
And I often have to just be transparent with my kids and say, okay, like you just saw my
angry side and I want, I want to get deeper here and get more transparent with you and tell
you the truth.
Like, I'm actually afraid, you know, like, that's where that outburst of anger came from.
And, you know, show them what it looks like to, to process externally, like, to, to unpack
some of the emotions that come up in our household when they do.
And really, and really come, like, because every rupture needs a repair.
And if we haven't done that for ourselves, we can't do it for our kids.
And so it's just, it's super, I mean, we, we are so amazing as women.
We've got, we, we've got so much going on, you know, those of us that are raising kids,
running a business, running a podcast like you are, you know, like, we're coming into, we're
at a point where we've reparented ourselves.
Many of us are taking care of our elderly parents.
I mean, it's like, whoa, there's a lot going on.
There's a lot going on.
Yeah, women are pretty amazing when it comes to how much they can, how much they could
do and how much they can achieve.
I'm always amazed by women.
And I get to meet a lot of them on this podcast, so I'm really, really grateful for that.
Yeah.
So get into, I want to hear more about intentional creativity.
Yeah.
I want to know what that means and how did that happen?
How did you, how did that happen?
Okay, so, so about 18 months ago, I, so to give a little history for your audience and guests,
I was, I had also been a podcaster.
I had podcasted for about four years.
I was really excavating the feminine throughout the podcast, almost 200 episodes.
It's called the Revelation Project.
It's still out there.
But you know, I got to a point where I was like, here I am.
I was 53 years old at the time and I thought, you know, I, I feel like I might be complete.
And even though the podcast was in the top one and a half percent, the advice around
me was like, what are you crazy?
You can't stop now.
I thought, well, okay, let me just take a sabbatical.
Like maybe I can just take some time.
And I think I was, I had to fool myself at first, right?
I had to say like just for a small amount of time.
And so for, so I decided that I wanted to go back to art school.
And that happened because I got really quiet in a meditation.
And you know, kind of that inner intuitive voice said prepare to be empty for a while.
And I thought, oh boy, okay, well, if I'm going to be empty, maybe I can also,
come back to a place of creativity because I had left a part of myself a 19 year old part
long ago that wanted to go to art school.
And she couldn't go because her patriarchal father at the time really wanted her to go do
a liberal arts education.
And he didn't think I was going to be supported in art school or, you know, all of the things
that they say about, you know, the creative path.
Like it's not lucrative.
You're never going to find a husband blah, blah, blah, all the things.
So I found my creative outlet in other ways, but, you know, I thought, well, why not?
Why not go to art school, right?
It's never too late.
And here I am at this stage in my life, you know, really having to walk my own walk and
talk my own talk because it's such a risk, right?
I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm going to do this.
Okay.
So I started with a six month sabbatical and I ended up meeting an art teacher.
My name is Shiloh Sophia.
And that was how my art journey began and it has progressed.
But one of the biggest teachings I got from Shiloh was just talking about, she was often
sharing the creative process and it's her term, intentional creativity.
And what it really is about is about daring to make a mark, daring to be intentional,
daring to as women create from nothing.
I mean, it's what we're designed to do.
And it's about really like full permission, full, like that our self expression is beautiful,
the mark and the, the marks that we make, it becomes, we are matter.
And when we create, we become matter, mattering.
And I loved that.
I thought, oh my God, there's this beautiful way of like, I am matter, mattering.
I am doing something that matters to me.
It doesn't have to matter to anybody else.
But it became this like what started out as this like, oh, I'm going to go to back to
art school and learn the tips and techniques and blah, blah, blah.
It wasn't about that at all.
It was all about self expression.
It was all about meeting myself on the canvas.
It was all about hearing the parts of myself that are still so oppressed, suppressed,
scared, unsure, disproving.
And it was fascinating to continue this journey.
And I realized, oh my gosh, I can't stop now.
Like, I'm just, I'm just starting to finally get into a flow with it.
And I'm realizing how much it's actually helping other women.
So now I can take all of my transformational coaching work, all of the storytelling and
mythology and rights of passage work and bring it to the canvas.
Now with women, and that's what I've started to create with is taking these small group
coaching, you know, circles and bringing art into it, bringing intentional creativity into
it because women are learning so much about themselves.
And they're much more able to hear those inner voices more clearly when it comes to their
own creations.
And then so instead of it being about the outcome, it's about the journey.
It's about the process.
It's about like the fears that come up with, oh my gosh, it's not perfect.
Oh my god, it's messy.
Oh my god, it's muddy, right?
It's like, it's like this process of revelation that continues to give women an opportunity
for another insight and another breakthrough.
And it's just been so fun.
And women get to produce amazing pieces of art that they never thought they would have
to produce and they're proud of them, you know, they're just like, oh my gosh, like I look
at a painting and I'm like, oh, you have no idea what it took to get there, right?
Because it's become an actual emotional psychospiritual journey of, you know, getting, getting
paint on the canvas and coming up with finally a piece.
So with every painting, there's usually a story, layers and layers and layers and layers.
And we, I don't pull anything into form at all until like the last, last layer.
So it could, it could be like a piece that you're just working on for as long as you need to
work on it.
Mm-hmm.
I love, yeah, I feel like painting is such a metaphor for life.
And as I told you before we hopped on, I very recently have stepped back into my creativity
and I just thought it was so weird how aligned this podcast is coming right after the
podcast I did this week about how beneficial creativity is.
Because as soon as I started stepping back into this, I, I just felt so relaxed and so happy.
And it's like, I'm having so much fun doing it.
And so then I started looking into it and I saw this TED talk by Amy McNeigh who talks
about, you know, the so many benefits of it.
We need your art, right?
Yeah, we do.
Yes, I love her.
And then, and then I, and then I started doing a little bit of research and it turns out
that it's very beneficial for stress and anxiety.
But not just that, like you said, it's like a journey.
And I started doing water color.
So I grew up among art and crafts of all sorts and I thought this was normal, but this was
not normal in a good way.
And I was like, my mom taught ceramics and she, we had a kill in the house and I, there
was always clay.
I could always make something out of clay and paint it and fire it.
And so I always had access to that.
I learned how to make my own clothes.
And so she was an artist, her mother was an artist and then her, my great-grandmother was
also an artist, sculpture, but my, my great-grandmother was also a milliner, a half designer.
And she worked for like a top designer in New York City.
Lily, oh, I can't remember her name, but it was like kind of like during the Depression
and that year.
And so this woman designed all these hats for all the famous people and it was a big deal.
And my grandmother used to go to France and go to the racetracks and like draw pictures
of the hats that she saw then and then come back here and then they would make designs
based on those drawings.
Oh, how cool.
Which I think is really, really, really cool.
And she worked in New York City and I just think it's really cool that now my daughter is
there.
All my kids are extremely creative and very talented.
And that's how I got back into it.
Because my daughter started doing art.
She's very creative and she has a very successful art business and whenever I go to her house
there's stuff everywhere and I could just like use all her stuff.
And so then I just started doing it more and more.
And so I stepped into watercolor which is something I never did with my mom.
It's something brand new and it's very, um, watercolor is very, uh, can I be controlled?
And I think that's what I like about watercolor is that while you're using your imagination
and you're in creation mode, you also at the same time have to be open to how it's going
to play out on the canvas because it has its own mind.
Yeah, it's unpredictable.
Yeah.
And so this creates a lot of resilience in yourself because you have to be open to what's
going to happen next.
And I can't tell you how many times I painted something and I'm like, oh Jesus, like, what is
happening there?
And then once you finish it, then you're like, oh, that actually, that became something.
Right?
It's like, it's, it's so true.
It's like, it's like everybody likes to see the finished piece, but nobody, you know,
it's like to get through the messy middle of it.
You're, you're challenged to kind of like be with all of these parts of yourself that
are like, what is that?
You know, or, or like, you know, the internalized voices.
I'm like, oh my god, that, like that voice was so mean just now.
Like, was that, you know, it's just, it's fascinating, but it's so true.
What you say about like just all of the, um, you know, they've proven that there's so
much like neural benefit to doing it.
Like our brains on art are literally rewiring themselves.
And so for, for women to get into their creative flow, for them to reclaim their authorship
and their, um, like, approval of themselves through a creative process is the most beautiful
thing I've ever witnessed in my life.
You know, it's like watching a woman come and just be like, I don't know anything.
Like, I'm like, great, you know, like just the, if she has a desire to get her hands dirty,
it to me, it's just like, that's the perfect place to start because I think like that's
been the, the message sold to us is like, if we're not good at it, why even bother doing
it?
And yet art becomes one of those things.
It's like, it's not about that.
It's not about being good at it.
It's about what are you here to express?
And like you said, it's like what will come?
It's like the painting kind of reveals itself to you so it becomes its own revelation project.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I, I mean, I like, I like doing acrylic too.
Um, you have a lot more control with acrylic, but I also think that for me at least I have
no, like, I've never learned how, I've learned how to paint, paint ceramics and that's it.
And that was when I was a little kid, really.
Mm-hmm.
So I don't really have like an educational background in art.
So I don't know what I'm doing.
Sometimes I think that's really good because you break all the rules, you know, and, you
know, I just mixed stuff together.
Like, I'm doing, I have acrylic on top of watercolor and then I got markers in there and, you
know, just, yeah, it just becomes like a mixed media extravagance.
Yeah.
And you learn like what happens.
It's like you become like the chemist and you become like, you're just like, you're
in this state of like, beginner's mind.
Like, I wonder, I wonder what will happen if I do this.
Yeah.
You know, and you can come up with some great, you can kind of stumble into some amazing
methods and ways of, of creating that you never would have unless you had kind of like
tripped onto it.
Yeah.
And I think it, I think it was really good for me.
This is very new for me at least maybe a couple of months, right?
So, but what I think is really good for me is that I'm a very type A type person and I'm
like, get it, all my ducks in a row.
I'm not a perfectionist, but like, I don't know how to explain it.
So like that whole, the whole idea of mixing all these things together was like, oh my God,
like clutch your pearls, you know?
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my God, acrylic with water.
Whoa.
What a way.
I'm going out of control here.
So, so I, I think it's really good for me to just be like, oh, I don't, it doesn't
really matter what it looks like when it's done.
Like you said, when I first started, it really mattered to me.
Yeah.
Now I'm just like, ah, whatever, you know, it's just, it's the whole, the whole process is
beautiful.
And I now have like a setup in my house where I keep everything out all the time as a gigantic
bird in the tree.
Like, it must be like, it might be an eagle.
Oh.
It was like, it was very distracting.
Okay.
It was really, very prophetic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
I didn't, okay.
So anyway, I have this table and it's, it's an island like right in my kitchen and all my
art stuff's there.
And I always have like a painting going in that space.
And so like, I'll get up to make a cup of coffee and I'm like, oh, this is like, I'm not
gonna do a little bit, you know?
And then I'm like, later on, I'm like, ooh, it's dry again.
You have to wait till it dries sometimes.
Yeah.
Not to get all mixedy.
And so I'm just constantly walking back and forth.
So it's just a part of my day now.
And I, apps, I love it so fucking much.
I can't even tell you how much I love it.
I just want to be doing that.
Yeah.
Well, no, it's so true.
And that's the thing is like, I think we in doing this, it's like we're reconnecting to
like fun and pleasure and really it's our birthright, you know?
It's like, we are creative beings.
We are artists, in fact, in the toll tech tradition.
And this is why the eagle is so important and why the eagle's presence is so important.
In the toll tech tradition, you are the artist of your life.
And what eagle represents is, so there's a part of the shamans prayer and it says, let
me just remember it because it's so beautiful.
It says, welcoming in the winds of the east, eagle, help me fly high in the sky to see
the bigger picture.
Help me step into the void of not knowing so that something awe inspiring beyond my wildest
dreams can be revealed for me.
So it's like, it's like it's this really powerful position in the east on the medicine wheel
where eagle represents kind of like, let me fly high in the sky, see the bigger picture,
step into the void of not knowing, which is what we're doing when we create.
We're creating with the void.
We're creating with the not knowing and let something awe inspiring better than I could possibly
even imagine for myself come into being, right?
And so every time we take a risk as women, every time we co-create with the void or with
the true spirit of who we are, we are matter, mattering.
We are creating something that matters to us and by virtue of the fact that it really matters
to us, it will matter out there.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It really beautiful and it like gives me like chills because it's just sitting.
So there's this tree on the property where I live.
It's this big oak tree.
And to me, that tree is like the tree that's in charge of the property, right?
That's where I sit.
There's like a little creek there and that's where I kind of do my thinking.
That's my space.
That's where my mom is kind of sprinkled.
And so the bird is sitting in that tree right now and that face is east too.
Mm-hmm.
There we go.
It's all there.
So it's like, I'm like, ooh, like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love that.
Yeah.
Well, and the other part of the prayer talks about, with Eagle talks about like welcoming
a new sunrise in my life where the old slips away into the darkness of night bringing
joy, love and laughter, right?
And so what we were just talking about is that's that state of being that we're almost like
we've almost forgotten as women how to get into that flow state, that state of being where
and that's because we're so busy over functioning.
Mm-hmm.
We're so busy over functioning and we have to get better at saying no out there to say yes
to ourselves.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's also, I would like to just say to women all the people listening right
now that it takes some time because a lot of women have been in that over function in their
entire lives.
Programs.
Their life.
Yeah.
And it feels natural to them.
It feels comfortable.
It feels familiar.
And so that's why it's hard to step out of that.
It's so uncomfortable.
And just like speaking from experience for myself, how uncomfortable it feels.
Every time I make a big change in my life, especially as I get older, I am so uncomfortable.
But I also know for a fact that anytime something scares me to death, that it's usually the best
thing that I need, it's like the best thing I should be doing right now.
Like, it's always magic on the other side of that.
It's over.
It's never been, as long as it's an expansive feeling, like if it's like a feeling that's
like, oh, like that's different.
Like that expansive, like you're terrified, but you're also excited.
And it's like, you feel like, I don't know, I'm like doing these motions with my hands right
now for people who can't like see us because it's like expansive.
You feel like you're opening up.
Right.
You can really sense that instead of it being a contracting energy, like that actually we
can trust.
We can trust those energies that make us contract.
But if the deeper desire is like, oh, I really want to do this, but I'm scared.
You know, like it's, so there's something on the other side of it and you're so right.
I mean, with every, you know, dark night, I call what you're going through, even it's a
mini dark night, right?
When we're, when we are challenged to like move into something new, like we're, we are not
meant to stay.
Yeah.
We're not meant to stay and stagnate.
We're meant to expand and grow and to find our growing edge is our birth right.
And there's nothing like creativity to get you kind of like closer to your edge because
you start giving yourself such a gift when you get into those places where you're like,
oh my gosh, I can see more of myself.
I can embody more of myself.
I can approve more of myself.
And it's, and it's really about the journey, not the outcome.
And there are very few places in the world where that's really what it's about where you're
allowed to just be messy and childlike.
Yeah.
It's so, it's so important.
I went into this candy store.
I think it was in Brooklyn in New York and I, I apologize for not remembering the name
of the candy store, but there was a postcard that they had and it said growing up as a trap.
And I said, that is my new mantra because that is so true.
That is so true.
I, and I always say also, I'm very immature, but in all the good ways and I embrace that
immaturity because we have to have fun.
Life is just way too serious.
And we're only here for a short time and we're supposed to experience joy.
That's really our purpose is to find our passion, our joy, and then to share it.
And then, you know, so like, that's what we're supposed to be doing.
But most of us are only doing that maybe 5% of the time.
And so being able to like, step more into that joy and more into that passion that you
have and keep working on getting aligned, getting aligned, getting aligned.
Every time I'm like, I do like these little breakdowns in my life and in my business.
And I would say, I don't really have, it's not like planned, but when I start to feel like
stock, I'm like, okay, what's aligned and what's not.
I just go through everything.
And like, that's, that needs to go away.
That doesn't work for me.
And just because you put your all into something like your podcast as an example, just because
you put everything into you have all that success, doesn't mean that you have to hang on to
it forever.
You know, it's just, it was a part of your journey, a part of your life and now you're doing
something different.
And it got me here.
It got me actually to the place where I trusted this opening, right?
Where I trusted like, okay, this is the next place for me to go.
And I couldn't have seen at the time that it could incorporate everything I had learned
through podcasting, that it could incorporate, you know, all of these, because I study mythology,
especially women's mythology.
And so I was like, oh my gosh, I can teach this through the artistic process, you know,
through the creative process.
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's, I think it's beautiful that what you shifted into is still connected kind of
what you used to do.
But it's just expanded and it's serving that change and that growth that you wanted to experience.
And I think that's really, really cool and really beautiful that you're working with these
women and you're sharing that with them.
And now they could, I feel like that probably accelerates the time it takes for them to really
step into their authenticity because it just kind of, art just kind of does that, creativity
kind of does that.
And I talked about the other day when I did that podcast about, and Amy, this is Amy McNeigh
once again, like she said this, that creativity doesn't have to be like fine art.
It could be like anything.
At any time you're creating like the podcast was a form of creativity for you.
That's right.
You know, writing is creativity.
Anything that you're, a garden is creativity.
Cooking is creativity.
So like I want women to know that there's different ways to step into creativity, whatever feels
aligned for them.
If you could, I guess maybe tell women how they can connect with you and learn more about
what you're doing, that would be really cool.
Yeah.
So the website is called join the revelation.com.
Tell all of that.
And on there, of course, are all the podcast episodes.
And if anybody is interested in kind of a journey, it was my journey through excavating and
reclaiming the feminine in my life.
And also got into a lot of like conversations that are pretty taboo, you know, like conversations
about, you know, healing the witch wound, the myth of anana, healing alternative healing,
like all, all what I would call feminine based, right?
It's not the patriarchal norm.
Let's put it that way.
Okay.
So it was, the podcast for me was really about my own search for my own spirituality, understanding
all these concepts of feminine, masculine, what that meant, how to apply them to my life.
But also it was this unbecoming process, this unpro-d programming process, this decondent
conditioning process.
So a lot of tips, tools and practices are we've throughout the podcast.
But in addition to that, what I'm creating next is probably an online group coaching program
called unbecoming.
I've brought several groups of women through it, but I've never added the creativity component,
so that will be, that will start this January.
And through that process, we'll be studying the heroine's journey, the myth of anana,
and we'll be doing it through creativity.
Oh, I love that.
That's so much fun.
Yeah.
And I can't wait to listen to your podcast too.
I feel like those two podcasts together will be very, I don't know.
Yes, and we interviewed each other too.
I just hope that.
Yes, yes, we did.
In fact, I have an essay on there called Disrupting the Patriarchal Trans-of Unworthiness,
and she had me read that essay on season two.
Oh, cool.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm excited for this one.
I need a new podcast.
Oh, you'll love this.
You will love this.
Yeah, I'm very excited for both of them, actually.
So all that information will be in the show notes.
So to find out about the group coaching, they just go to your website, right?
Okay.
Yeah, and they can just sign up.
There's a free gift there.
There's a downloadable.
It's called the Women's Bill of Rights.
And I always encourage women to download it and write their own.
So that's an active rebellious creativity right there.
Yeah.
But in downloading it, then I have your email and then I'll update you on the upcoming
courses.
Okay, cool.
I'll do that myself, too.
Whenever I have someone on the podcast, I'm like, "I just want to spend time with all these
women.
They're so great.
So I want to thank you for coming on and sharing all this with me."
It was such a fun conversation.
So thank you.
And thank you for the work that you're doing in the world.
Oh my gosh.
And thank you.
That was just so serendipitous.
I love that the Eagle Visitors.
I love that when I logged on, I saw the beautiful.
The artwork behind you and that we figured out that we have that in common.
It was such a great, great time.
Thank you so much.
Yes.
I agree.
Thank you.
And thanks to all of your listeners.
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